Transcript

Ira Glass

Hey there, podcast listeners, Ira here. So there's some cursing in this week's show, and we're not going to beep it here on the podcast and internet version of the show. If you prefer a beeped version of our program, like we do on the radio, that's great. Go to our website, thisamericanlife.org, and you can download it from there.

This thing about not beeping the words is something we've tried a few times here on the internet. And we're not sure how often we should do it, or if we should keep doing it. We would love to hear what you think. If you have an opinion about this, email us at web@thislife.org, and it would help us a lot to sort these emails out if you put in the subject header, Beep Yes, or Beep No, in the subject line. OK, Beep Yes or Beep No. I think that's pretty simple. I think you understand which one goes with which one you feel. I'm not going to say anything more about that. OK. Here is today's show.

For years, David liked playing this not so well-known board game called Diplomacy, where he would get to do things and act in ways that he would never do in his regular life. He describes the game as a cross between Risk, poker, and the television show Survivor. Basically, there's a map of Europe, you're assigned a country, and you're trying to take over the world.

Ira Glass

Team up and attack, that is. Before each turn, there's 15 minutes where everybody negotiates with everybody else about who's going to work with whom. And then, everybody goes off and writes down on pieces of paper who it is that they're going to attack, and then all the papers are read out loud, and everybody finds out who is aligned with who, and who double crossed who.

People stab each other in the back so much in this game, they don't even take the time to say the full phrase, stabbed in the back. Everybody just calls it stabbing. David played with a group of guys, his buddies, always by email. Once a week, they would email each other their next moves, which meant that the game would take months. David thought he knew what he was doing, but his friends wondered about him sometimes.

Ira Glass

Well, maybe not nothing. But it's a game with a certain amount of yelling, and bullying, and psychological manipulation. And the boundary line is not always so clear on what you should be doing. Another time that it seemed like David might not be perceiving where that line is the same way that his opponents did came at the very first game that he played with other people in person, like not on email.

He'd wanted to play in person for years, but his buddies weren't into that. And so finally, he got his chance when a friend invited him to an informal tournament in Connecticut.

They were allies, but then David saw a way to take some of his territories, and he teamed up with a different guy against him.

Ira Glass

Or maybe he had not been rude. Maybe he did nothing wrong. Maybe this guy was just pretending to be mad to mess with David's head. Pretending to be a hothead, because that image could be useful with all the other opponents coming around to the tournament. David had no idea.

Ira Glass

Years passed. And then he saw that the World Diplomacy Championship was going to be in the United States this year. And he thought maybe he would try to play it one more time and record it for our program. David's a reporter. His full name is David Hill. He usually writes about sports for the website "Grantland."

And he vowed that this time, playing Diplomacy was going to be different. He knew that he needed a new approach to the game, because he couldn't even figure out why other players were reacting to his moves the way that they were. Like, this is a game where you're supposed to stab people in the back. But the way that he was doing it, people were just freaking out. He lacked diplomacy.

Ira Glass

And that person was not a gamer. That person was a diplomat. An actual, real life, diplomat. In fact, one that you may have heard of, Dennis Ross. Probably best known as President Clinton's Middle East envoy. Dennis Ross brokered the Oslo II Accord. He also helped the George H.W. Bush Administration on German reunification, back when the wall came down. He's been an adviser to President Obama.

And in case you're wondering how this man, who's not just brokered international deals, but done it in some of the most contentious conflicts in the world, responded when he was asked to use his expertise and give advice to somebody at the world championship for the board game Diplomacy, well, once it was explained to him what the board game is, his answer was, sure, sounds like fun.

Ira Glass

Ambassador Ross apparently took to the game immediately. And we have the story of what happened when David brought his ringer to the fight, when he brought a professional to an amateur match up.

Today on our program, stories of trying to figure out who has your back, and who's looking to stab you in the back, and trying to sort out one from the other. Also, you know there are all the people who want to have your back, who try to have your back, but you are probably making a mistake to depend on them. We talk about that too. WBEZ Chicago, It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Stay with us.

Ira Glass

Act One, Absolutely Stabulous. All right. So you have the set-up, right? David Hill takes Ambassador Dennis Ross to help him win at a board game tournament. Here is David.

David Hill

The World Championship of Diplomacy brought together almost 90 top Diplomacy players from eight different countries. Most of them were middle-aged men. All of them were nerds. And not the Chris Hardwick, Olivia Munn kind of nerd. Homespun nerds. The real deal. Nerds from all over the world, in a prototypical nerd setting, a basement. In this case, the dim basement of a dorm at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

I strutted into that dorm with Diplomat Dennis Ross by my side, and was worried about intimidating the other players. I didn't need to worry. Nobody was scared. Amused, maybe. Only one person in this room had counseled four presidents. And everyone's reaction was, meh. In fact, the tournament director felt he had to rig the game in our favor by assigning me Russia, the strongest of the seven countries on the board. When they announced the assignments, people actually laughed.

David Hill

I quickly lost my confidence. Who was I kidding? I was up against the best in the world. And I'd only have an ambassador in my corner for the first game on the first day of a three-day tournament. So I decided, all I wanted to do was to survive to the end of this game. To know that I could do this. I was freaked out. But Dennis Ross was unfazed.

Seven of us gathered around the board. We nodded brief hello's, put 15 minutes on the clock, and bam. Time to negotiate. Since I was big bad Russia, I was instantly the most popular person in the room. All the other players started, well, flirting with me.

That was Austria. Next was Germany.

David Hill

Italy.

And Turkey. Russia and Turkey often ally with each other in this game. The shorthand for their alliance is RT. Here's Turkey.

Everyone was pretty convincing, I have to say. I didn't know who to believe or who to trust. But Dennis didn't hesitate. For him, it was just another day at the office. He took me into the hallway to confer.

David Host

Dennis said that Turkey reminded him of someone. Someone named Sergey Tarasenko. Tarasenko was the Soviet foreign minister's chief assistant. When Dennis first met Tarasenko, he knew he was going to have to work with him on the issue of German reunification. But he wasn't sure if he could trust him.

David Hill

Sold. I allied with Turkey. This turned out to be smart. Later in the game, there were plenty of moments where I simply had no idea what the hell was going on. But Turkey knew what he was doing. And he had an interest in keeping me alive.

David Hill

As the game unfolded, everyone was going after Italy. Everyone but me. So Italy came over for a chat.

David Hill

It was a tempting offer, and I was flattered. Italy was one of the best players on the board, a former world champion named Chris Martin. But saying yes to Italy meant turning against Turkey, and Turkey had been a loyal ally. So Dennis said no. It's like they say, you got to dance with the one what brung ya.

David Hill

I was still so nervous, I kept out of the fighting for as long as I could. I watched Germany and England turn on France and eliminate him from the game. I couldn't stall forever. I knew that eventually, I'd have to go to war. I just didn't know who I should fight. But Dennis watched me talking to Germany, who bears a more than passing resemblance to Jason Statham. I was so anxious, you can hear me tapping my lapel mike with a pen.

Dennis' evaluation?

So I declared war on Germany, and advanced on Munich.

David Hill

Later, Germany told me this was a great move. Maybe that explains why he was so ticked off about it when I did it.

David Hill

Lying is something Dennis had very strong feelings about. And his feeling was, never do it. Ever.

David Hill

He also told me that overall, I should keep my attitude in check. No bullying, no badgering. This is just what I wanted to hear. My experience with playing cutthroat, like when I blackmailed my friend, or got cussed out in that creepy mention, always ended badly. I was relieved to hear there was a way to be good at Diplomacy without making everyone hate me in the process.

After five or six hours, it got to the point where there were two major alliances, each one taking up about half the board. What that meant was a stalemate. A six-way draw. And we'd all have to split the points for the game. I was fine with that. So were the other people in my alliance.

But the other side wanted more points. More points would give them a better shot at winning the world championship. So they pulled each person from my side into the hall, one by one, and they offered each of us a deal to stab our friends.

When Italy returned from his meeting in the hallway, they followed him back in the room, still hassling him. They went up one side of him and down the other, until he snapped.

David Hill

Everyone in the room took a step back. This was the first time tonight any of us had seen Italy show any kind of anger, and it occurred to me, is he faking this as a tactic? Dennis had said anger was a good tool, but only if you use it sparingly.

David Hill

Our opponents agreed to only go one more turn before conceding to a draw. Nobody broke. Just like Dennis advised, Turkey and I stuck together to the very end, with our new allies, Italy and Austria, and the game was over.

It was just like I'd hoped. I survived. I got through the first game. A draw with the best players in the world. Before he left, Dennis Ross said farewell to our opponents.

David Hill

Austria pipes up, so are you hiring?

David Hill

The good vibes died there. Day two. Dennis was gone. And without him, everything went to hell. My opponents weren't polite or patient anymore. People admitted they'd been nicer when Dennis was around. I think they might have wanted to show the diplomat just how diplomatic they could be. There were fewer attacks and stabs than usually happen. But that was yesterday.

David Hill

Day two was Lord of the Flies. I stuck with the principles Dennis gave me. Pick an ally and stick with him. Don't lie. But it was just like in that weird mansion. I felt like everyone was mad at me. And this time, they all told me I wasn't vicious enough. This time, they all wanted me to stab my ally. They laughed in my face, and told me I was a fool. Everybody stabs, they said. That's part of the game.

I refused. And the gloves came off. Are you going to be paid for writing this story, a burly Scottish player asked me. Because I'm losing three day's wages to be here, so that I can get screwed by you. He told me I wasn't just playing badly, I was ruining the game for everyone. I got mad, and not in the smart, strategic kind of way.

Eventually my ally, a high school math teacher named Brian, ended up stabbing me. He watched me go to the mat with the other players to defend him, then he chopped me out of the game for a few extra points. I was incredulous. I pulled him aside and asked him why he sold me out. He said, I guess I'm just a hard motherfucker like that, and turned and walked away.

I am not a hard motherfucker. Not even in a game. I really wanted to play the game of Diplomacy using actual diplomacy, being respectful and truthful, and it didn't work. I felt frustrated and angry, and my only consolation was, at least Dennis Ross thought I'd make a good diplomat. I mean, that's what he told me. So who cares what these nerds think?

David Hill

After I got back home, I called Dennis Ross. I told him what I'd been thinking since the tournament. That the game seemed to require players to be cutthroat, and it wasn't for me.

That's how good he is. He never lied to me. He never told me I was cut out to be a diplomat. And somehow, I came away from our conversation believing exactly what I wanted to believe.

Ira Glass

David Hill. He wrote more about the World Diplomacy Championships for Grantland. You can find that at grantland.com, or there's also a link to that article at our website, thisamericanlife.org. Coming up, a do-gooder who does not have the back of most of the people who want his help. That's in a minute. Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

Ira Glass

It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's program, "Got Your Back," stories of trusting people to protect and guide you, even in situations where it is not so certain that that is a good idea. We've arrived at Act Two of our program. Act Two, By the Waters of Haggle-On.

You may have heard this audio on the internet. A guy named Ryan Block called Comcast to cancel his internet service. He wanted to change to a different provider, and 10 minutes into the call, he started recording.

Ira Glass

This recording goes on and on for eight minutes.

Ira Glass

After this call went viral, someone from Comcast called Ryan Block to apologize. At this point, 5 million people have listened to this online. And I think that it is so popular because so many of us have been in some situation like this, where we're against some company. We totally powerless.

Well, every other week in "The Haggler" column in the New York Times, people write in with their unsolvable consumer problems, and then reporter David Segal steps in. He takes their side. He has their back He publicly approaches the company, and tries to get them to do the right thing.

Ira Glass

A while back, David Segal stepped in for a guy. He said that he had signed up for a free trial eGreeting cards from a company called Blue Mountain Greeting Cards. The company required his credit card info to give him the free trial. And so he did that, and then clicked some buttons. And then the next thing you knew, they told him that he was a monthly subscriber. So he tried to cancel. Right? This is from his email to David Segal.

Ira Glass

So, good news, right? David tried to reach the consumer, which he always does for the column. And suddenly, this guy who had been emailing him back and forth for days stopped returning his emails. His column deadline approached. David got a little more frantic.

Ira Glass

When you write a column like this, of course, tons of people get in touch wanting you to take their side and get their backs. And the overwhelming majority, David Segal says, he simply cannot help. Like 95 out of 100, he cannot help. Because, he says, these customers, they're not in the right. They are--

Ira Glass

David Segal of "The Haggler" column of the New York Times.

Ira Glass

Act Three. One woman show. There's this woman named Hamida Gulistani. She advocates for women's rights in Afghanistan, helping women who are being beaten by their husbands, or forced into terrible arranged marriages. And doing this work in Afghanistan is just as hard a job as whatever it is that you're imagining when I say those words.

And for a few years, when the US presence in the country was at its greatest, she did feel like somebody had her back. She felt safer. She saw some progress. But now with the US pulling out, her situation is changing. It's gotten way more dangerous already. We do not have her back in the same way at all.

For two and a half years, Kevin Sieff has been the Bureau chief for the Washington Post in Afghanistan. And he has this story about the change that she is facing. A quick trigger warning, for anybody who needs a trigger warning, that this story does include descriptions of incidents of violence against women. Here's Kevin Sieff.

Kevin Sieff

Before the US was there as her ally, Hamida was pretty much on her own, doing a job she invented for herself, out of nothing. She had no role models. She completely made the whole thing up.

She started doing this in 2005. At the time, she'd just gotten a nursing job at a clinic in a place called Ghazni City. It's a sprawl of mostly mud-baked buildings in Eastern Afghanistan. At the clinic, Hamida basically had a front row seat how brutally women were still being treated four years after the American invasion. Patients arrived all the time, in burkas, with bruises and broken bones. One day a pregnant woman showed up at the examination room.

Kevin Sieff

Hamida basically became a one woman emergency response team. A de facto point of contact for women who were abused, forced into marriages, or refused divorces. Her phone number got passed all over Ghazni. She realized, she didn't have the legal system on her side. She didn't have local officials on her side.

But the Americans were encouraging Afghans to recognize women's rights. And the one tool Hamida had was the media, which she used. This was something new in Afghanistan. She'd drag along the press when she'd should go to see a local imam in a remote village. The best way to help a woman facing domestic violence was to get the local religious leader involved. So she had a strategy. She'd call the imam.

Kevin Sieff

With the reporter there, the imams usually would be helpful.

Kevin Sieff

For cases where women didn't want any media attention, Hamida would just show up at the family's house and ad hoc her way to an intervention. A lot of times, there was a conflict between the woman and her own family, mostly involving arranged marriages. A woman once came to Hamida. She said her father was about to marry her off to a drug addict.

Kevin Sieff

What happened to the girl after this case was settled by the attorney general?

Kevin Sieff

To a man that she chose to marry?

Kevin Sieff

Nine years after she first started, Hamida still operates pretty much the same way. She keeps track of all of her cases in a gruesome notebook. It's full of pictures she's taken of victims with her digital camera, handcuffed girls standing in in prison, women who have almost been beaten to death.

Hamida carries an old black cellphone with her all the time, and it's constantly ringing with calls from women who want her help.

Kevin Sieff

It didn't take long for the Americans to notice Hamida. They'd hoped to find Afghan women who would take up the cause of women's rights. And here she was, exactly what they were looking for. Someone outspoken, aggressive, and willing to risk her life. So they met Hamida, and involved her in meetings with top Afghan leaders. She even came to Washington, DC as part of a State Department program.

Now Hamida is a big deal. Lots of Afghans know who she is. She's on the provincial counseling in Ghazni. It's their version of the state senate. She's also popular national TV shows all the time, like this one, called The People's Voice.

Kevin Sieff

In one segment, she's wearing eyeshadow, lipstick, and high heels. She's in her 40's, the only woman on a big panel of men. She fields questions from young women in the audience.

Kevin Sieff

This woman asks why the Afghan government talks so much about women's rights, but doesn't actually do anything. Why are women still having trouble going to school, and being out in public? I asked my translator to tell me Hamida's response.

Kevin Sieff

She's one of the few women in Afghanistan willing to criticize the government so publicly on national television. In Hamida's view, what she's doing only seems radical, because Afghanistan has changed so much since she was a girl. In the 1970s and '80s, it was a far more liberal place. It was a society dominated by men, but her father would never insult his daughters, or humiliate them, or beat them. She knew women who wore skirts and sleeveless shirts.

But Hamida remembers when all of that changed, when the Mujahideen took over the country. A rock had hit their house. Her cousin was injured. Everyone was going to the hospital, and her brother stopped her. And I said, no, I want to go. He said, no, you cannot come. Just stay at home.

Kevin Sieff

Hamida had been helping women in Ghazni for four years, when President Obama announced the troop surge in 2009. And many of those soldiers and Marines were dispatched to Ghazni. It's part of the Taliban's heartland. At one point, the province had about 20 American bases, and several thousand American troops.

For the first time, Hamida had real physical protection, international attention, and legitimacy in the eyes of her own skeptical government. The world's superpower had her back, and it gave her a sense of invincibility. She threw a big celebration in 2010 for Women's Day, and the US ambassador's wife showed up.

US troops came to help with security, and there was a huge turnout. Something that would have been hard to imagine before. Women in Ghazni were often confined to their homes. Things weren't perfect, but they seemed to be moving in the right direction.

Kevin Sieff

But after just a few years in 2013, Americans were withdrawn from Ghazni as a part of the larger plan to end the war. For months now, they've been tearing down bases all over Afghanistan. And when you drive around the country, they already look like ancient artifacts. Sort of like Pompeii with rusty razor wire.

Hamida's American contacts in the province were now suddenly gone. She felt things slipping backwards. And then last August--

Kevin Sieff

The police didn't come until after the attack completely ended. By that time, Hamida's bodyguard and driver were dead. She got lucky. The Taliban wanted to kill her.

Kevin Sieff

The Taliban are now gaining more control of Ghazni. At this point in the withdrawal, the US is mostly focused on training Afghan police and other security forces on how to defeat them. Women's rights have dropped into the background. And more and more Afghan officials don't even give lip service to women's rights. Last year, they tried to pass a law that would have made it legal to stone a woman accused of adultery. A few months later, parliament tried to make it tougher to prosecute rape cases.

Kevin Sieff

Hamida has a folder full of death threats from the Taliban. She's been shot at in a shopping mall, her daughter was in a car chase in the highway. Hamida's always on edge, and changes her house every six months.

Kevin Sieff

Just to give you a sense of what Hamida's up against, the main people left in Ghazni to protect her, the police, are often the same people she's trying to prosecute. A United Nations report shows that 70% of Afghan female police officers have been sexually abused or harassed by male officers.

One of her most disturbing cases recently involved a police officer kidnapping a 13-year-old girl named Nuria. Then he gang raped her with some of his colleagues. Hamida said the girl's whole body was shaking uncontrollably when they met. Nuria decided to talk to the local media. She wanted these guys arrested. So Hamida organized a press conference. She sat next to Nuria at a table, set up with microphones and recorders.

Kevin Sieff

Nuria tells them, I regained my consciousness around midnight. I saw three men, and I was completely naked. I tried to grab my clothes, but I fainted. These men violated me, and kidnapped me, and I want the government to provide justice for me.

Kevin Sieff

Over the last year or so, the Taliban has ramped up its own campaign against women. They've killed at least six female police officers, and other women as well. Sometimes, they videotape their murders. In one video, a woman named Najiba, who was accused of adultery, was shot 13 times while men cheered in the background.

At the same time, Hamida says, she sees signs of progress in surprising places. Like, she's getting a lot of phone calls these days from girls who've run away from home who need shelter. What's hopeful about this, she says, is that these girls have gotten the message. That they have a choice. They don't have to put up with violence.

American officials are hoping Hamida can continue the mission she started, even after their departure. One diplomat who's worked with Hamida is Karen Decker. She was the State Department's top official in Eastern Afghanistan, and used to fly over to to Ghazni in a helicopter whenever she wants to see Hamida.

Kevin Sieff

Karen left her post in Afghanistan shortly after this interview. She'd been there for two years, going to some of the country's most dangerous districts, where some of her first questions were almost always about women. Could they vote? Could they work? Could they attend school? Regardless of the answers, she knew the US withdrawal had to continue.

Kevin Sieff

Hamida's internet connection isn't fast enough in Ghazni for Skype, She only speaks Dari. She says, sure, since the bases have closed in her area, American officials and soldiers still try to keep in touch. They send her email. She does understand a little bit of English, but it's not good enough to read those emails.

Kevin Sieff

For safety reasons, Hamida moved her kids out of Ghazni. She sent one to live in Pakistan, and three to Kabul. Now, they act like they're the parents. They check in with Hamida frequently, ask how her day went, and you just make sure she's OK. Sometimes, her son, Solar, tries to stop her from going out on cases, especially at night. He's 13 and her youngest. I used the same interpreter for our interview.

Kevin Sieff

It's not as clear for Hamida's daughter, Frohal. She admires her mom. She wants to be just like her. And she's as progressive as any woman I've met in Afghanistan. When I met her at her house, Frohal wasn't wearing a head scarf. She's a senior in college, studying art. She likes sculpting nudes. In a few months, she'll graduate and move back to Ghazni to work with her mom. Forhal told me she recently asked her mom, what happens to their family when the Americans are completely gone? Again, I used the same translator.

Kevin Sieff

Right now, what Hamida thinks about the future, she vacillates between two extremes. She could double down and run for parliament next year. If she won a spot, she'd finally have some real power over Afghanistan's laws. But it would also make her an even bigger target for the Taliban. Or she could openly admit to her American contacts that she needs help getting out of the country. Hamida keeps their business cards in a special drawer in her desk. She's already thinking about asking them for visas for her kids. We talked for hours before she told me this. She was embarrassed.

Kevin Sieff

Does that ever make you want to quit?

Kevin Sieff

For now, though, in public, Hamida still plays the part of a confident Afghan woman. She wants women to feel like they still have an advocate. And so every time her cellphone rings, she takes the call, and when needed, heads out the door.

Ira Glass

Kevin Sieff is a foreign correspondent for The Washington Post. Thanks to his interpreter, Shafi Sharifi.

[MUSIC - "GOT YOUR BACK" BY MATT THE ELECTRICIAN] It's a little step in the right direction. Couldn't see it from space. I'm right next to you. Whatever you decide to do. I've got your back. We're on the same track. In the universe, you're a molecule. In my eyes, you're a great big deal. Bigger than the moon. You're the only tune I hear. I got your back. We're on the track.

Ira Glass

Our program was produced today by Chana Joffe-Walt, myself, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alyssa Shipp, and Nancy Updike. Our senior producer is Julie Snyder. production help from JP Dukes. Seth Lind is our operations director. Emily Condon's our production manager. Elise Bergerson's our office manager. Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website. Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer. Music help Rob Geddis.

Thanks today to Mohammad Sharif, Arash Afghahi, Sonya Ryda, Barya Schechter, David Hood, Chris Martin, Steve Cooley, Toby Harris, Andy Bartoloni, Siobhan Nolan, Mark Stegman, Aaron Duncan, Eric Monte, Greg Legorreta, and Emanuel Ruffler of Mac Tech.

A water pipe burst last night in our computer room here at the radio show. The only reason that we actually have a new program today is Emanuel swooping in after midnight to pull the audio off of water soaked computers. He had our back. He saved the day. Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks as to our program's co-founer, Mr. Torey Malatia, who describes his efforts rallying everybody who pitches on air during the pledge drive this way.

Ira Glass

I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

[MUSIC - "GOT YOUR BACK" BY MATT THE ELECTRICIAN]